Author Topic: V8 DNA 4thirty  (Read 142838 times)

Darren

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V8 DNA 4thirty
« on: May 23, 2009, 11:13:21 PM »
I'm a newby on this forum so thought I'd introduce myself, and my project so far

The DNA 430 is a lovely conversion, but lacks the V8 feel, so first off I've been researching the donor car capabilities
 
The famous toystar V8 was my first port of call. This is a transversely mounted northstar auto, unfortunately the engine sits partway into the firewall.
 Next step was Hilly's true v8 set up in a lotus esprit
http://www.motorgeek.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9648

So does the Audi A8 V8 with a 20ltr tdi 6 speed box fit in the MR2? yep!
http://www.woodsport.org/joomla/index.php/engine-conversions/51-v8/28-v8-conversions.html

I have spoken to Custom code and they're pretty sure that they can recode the ecu to ignore the original quattro gearbox.

I need the whole A8 car for extra bits when doing the transplant ie cooling system, cats wiring loom etc..

With over 300hp standard and V8 torque the engine will now give me the satisfaction of a replica and still be cheap to service, who knows a little further down the line a supercharger may be in the pipeline (I prefer the almost instant power as apposed to turbo lag)

I have been looking to build a replica for over 15 years but haven't had the time, now I do and can't wait.

 First purchase will be the A8 4.2 quattro, a 1995-1998 for around £1600
 The car will have the ecu sent away for reprogramming and remapping.
Next my Mr2 purchase, I'd like to get one with the precat destroyed engine, who knows. Budget £2500 max
 Once engine is running in the car I will purchase the 430 kit, I'm quite happy to do the suspension mods myself as I've built and raced short circuit cars for over twenty years, I'm not to fond of the large wheel spacers, I'll speak to the GAZ and LEDA guys later.
 Colour- ferrari met black with tan leather interior, One of my old mates is a great refinisher and sprayer, he'll spend a whole week preping and spraying in ICI

Just need to find the two cars to make a start!
Darren
 


Well, I'm into the 11th year of the project, could it be ready for Stoneleigh 2020, doubt it. The longest DNA build ever

MADMAN

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Re: V8 DNA 4thirty
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2009, 11:35:56 PM »
Hey dangerous,
                     sounds very interesting, have thought of Audi V8, this will make it go like f---
MADMAN  ;D

paulm

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Re: V8 DNA 4thirty
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2009, 09:01:17 AM »
Paul ( Woods) is currently working on the MK1 V8 conversion, I'm currently developing the Mk3 we're not formally working together but sharing information on the conversions. As you've seen the Mk1 has an easy drivshaft configuration, where as the Mk3 is not that simple, well if you want to keep the ABS that is.

it wont be a simple conversion and youre looking at a price of about £10K to get it done.

PS I already have a subframe to convert the MK3 to V8 as a bolt in kit, this lengthens the wheelbase of the Mk3 to the 430 wheelbase and takes away the need for hub extensions at the rear.
IHowever, t would require a new mould from DNA to reposition the wheelarches to the match the 430 wheelbase.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2009, 09:06:11 AM by paulm »

MADMAN

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Re: V8 DNA 4thirty
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2009, 09:33:49 AM »
cheers for that paulm,
                              I think after reading this it may be wise to go supercharer, what do you think?
MADMAN

Darren

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Re: V8 DNA 4thirty
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2009, 11:33:02 AM »
£10000?

I have been welding, cutting/shutting, fabricating adjusting my whole working life, the new powerplant will go in without any problem for me, I research, visit salvage yards, breakers etc and that's before I even pick up my cutting torch, I'm second generation damage repairer (retired, now field service engineer) and have full workshop facilities at my disposal.
 The only question is the ECU, Custom code haven't cofirmed a reprogram yet. Hilly has a great working aftermarket ECU for the v8 and he will build one complete with loom for around £1100 (depending on Euro strength) 

I'm a little confused as to where the £10000 has come from, even resplining the drive shaft for Audi to toyota is only £75/pair

I'm sure this will open some sort of debate as to "have you thought of this and that"
 Truth be told the budget for engine conversion is unknown, but I'd be suprised if it goes past £3000 for me with all bits included.
 An 'adjusted' rear subfame will be made to fit the engine and car with possible lower wishbone mounts or oem.
 Not sure yet but may have to fab up a new fuel tank, at the end of the day it's no different to my superbanger builds or saloon stock fabbed up engine bays.
 It's like most things if you've been doing it years you think nothing of it, if you're a newbie it's a mammoth task. I'm sure Madman can build these replicas with his eyes closed, but as he implied "Give me a spanner cutting torch welder and no probs stick me infront of a computer and I can turn it on. Just an example of where knowledge an experience lies (I know you can do more M, just using it as an example from one of your early posts)


I have found Paul very helpful so far and his development will help me no end, they look to be dedicated professionals, and for his team to take this on they too felt that the MR had V8 potential

As an added note, I can't thank Hilly enough for the advice and extensive build diary. If It wasn't for him I would've still been scratching my head around the Ls400 V8

Darren
Well, I'm into the 11th year of the project, could it be ready for Stoneleigh 2020, doubt it. The longest DNA build ever

paulm

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Re: V8 DNA 4thirty
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2009, 08:03:18 PM »
The £10K figure comes from Mr Woods, for the conversion to be done on the MK1, if you want to do it DIY, t would be much cheaper, as you'd be using your own capabilities.

Madman - A supercharger is a very good option for a fast MK3, obviously there are some Mk3 turbo's around too, but if it me and were sticking to 4 cylinder I'd go for the suprecharger. If wanted to get away from the four pot, theres a realtively simple V6 conversion using teh camry option, it gives similar power output to a supercharged Mk3, but with a V- engine burrble adds a bit more authenticity

PS Darren - are you aiming to fit the V8 in within the current firewall, wheelbase configuration
« Last Edit: May 25, 2009, 08:33:22 AM by paulm »

Darren

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Re: V8 DNA 4thirty
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2009, 09:15:19 AM »
I measured an MR2 up a couple of weeks ago and it's 27" from fire wall to the driveshaft, V8 engine pulley to driveshaft centre is 26"
 The fire wall may have to be altered to allow for drive belt servicing etc, but the driveshaft will sit slightly off centre aswell, from memory 5* is max recommended
D
Well, I'm into the 11th year of the project, could it be ready for Stoneleigh 2020, doubt it. The longest DNA build ever

paulm

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Re: V8 DNA 4thirty
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2009, 10:46:28 AM »
I think you need to be aware of the total length required vs available and not just the firewall to driveshaft distance.

Which in a Mk3 is 40" available, unfortunately the length of the engine and box is 47" and I would double check your driveshaft to firewall measurement, is more nearer 20" rather than 26", which would put the driveshaft angle at more than 17 degrees.

What that means is you have a gearbox that would stick out of the back of the car, like so and have a 17 degree drivehsaft angle



But there is a way around it
« Last Edit: May 25, 2009, 10:53:28 AM by paulm »

subaru5552000

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Re: V8 DNA 4thirty
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2009, 11:01:34 AM »
wow liking the sound of this build very intresting would it matter about it sticking out a bit cos if your putting a dna kit on it it should hide it, unless of course it sticks out underneath.

paulm

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Re: V8 DNA 4thirty
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2009, 11:53:00 AM »
IMHO if you went with it as it looks, it would physically fit in, but I think the driveshaft angle at 17 degrees + is too extreme, so there are two options,
One is for a DNA body kit which moves the wheel araches back, this brings the wheelbase more into line with the original car, then you would have the simplicicty of a bolt in kit, which when mounted on a subframe would look like this.




Complete with full size brakes and 360 exhaust system.

OR

which is what I'm working on at the moment is a conversion that fits inside the standard wheelbase MK3, although I' still not sure if it will work, due the the physical restrictions, but until you give it a go you never know.



After all that wethen get into balance and weight issues.

Essentially I'm giving it ago and if it works and its safe, I'll be happy to put it out to the public. Obviously if its not safe, I'll be smeared over the safety rail at Brooklands corner  :'(
« Last Edit: May 25, 2009, 11:55:36 AM by paulm »

Darren

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Re: V8 DNA 4thirty
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2009, 03:22:24 PM »
I knew it was tight, if the numbers don't add up then it'll be a v6, my concern is the drive shaft angle, they start to humm and wear out quickly, the fire wall will need to be addressed, the 27" came from the the front subframe to the chassis mount for the lower wishbone.
 Have you addressed the ecu issue?
D
Well, I'm into the 11th year of the project, could it be ready for Stoneleigh 2020, doubt it. The longest DNA build ever

paulm

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Re: V8 DNA 4thirty
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2009, 04:10:21 PM »
Not yet, although i do know that the gbox ecu generates a up and down transmission signal thats based on a 26khz carrier wave, I think it was 3.14 v p-p. worst case would be to replicate that signal with some electronics to fool the ecu. Although I dontt hink thats the best solution as would be liable to interference, which could mean erratic ecu performance. Not the thing you want on a 340hp engine  :o

If you can se in the photo above theres a reasonable amount of shaft angle and thats with the wheelbase moved 4" back, putting the hubs 4" further forward for a standard wheelbase creates a pretty big angle and as you say driveshaft failure....although no-one is willing to say how quickly.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2009, 09:25:38 PM by paulm »

OlberJ

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Re: V8 DNA 4thirty
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2009, 05:57:33 PM »
I wondered how you were going about this Paul. Didn't realise it would need a whole new rear of the kit moulded.

What's the craic with the standard wheelbase then, are you moving the tank and front crossmember i take it? Where would that have the rear of the gearbox sitting?

V6 with a SC is a good option for 260bhp to whatever your wallet will stretch to. And with the Berk system it sounds pretty authentic : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAuPoQ58iFU


paulm

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Re: V8 DNA 4thirty
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2009, 08:52:47 PM »
What you doin on here Ollie !  :P

Wait for sunday and I'll be able to update in brutal fashion, if you know what I mean.

Essentially by Sunday I'll have the engine in the silver Mk3 , the gearbox will fit in, in the confines of the standard bodywork no worries



Darren

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Re: V8 DNA 4thirty
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2009, 08:24:13 AM »
Finally got back to Custom code regarding the ecu, they said the work involved is estimated at £1500, but he said because I had the whole car why not keep the gearbox ecu and relative sensors. fool the gearbox ecu into neutral, it will just let the engine rev of it's own accord, any error codes could be dealt with easily.
 I've had my searchers looking around for a damaged A8 and I think they've found one for £900.
 Now to find a decent MR2 mk3.

I'll be looking to take out the front crossmember and fuel tank to make room for the engine and box. I'll fabricate a new one, once all dimensions are finalised.
Darren
Well, I'm into the 11th year of the project, could it be ready for Stoneleigh 2020, doubt it. The longest DNA build ever

 

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